15
10
2008
Session 9: What are the Different Views of the Millennium?
Posted by: carrie in Fall 2008Fall 2007 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below.
NOTE: This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
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October 30th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
1. Eschatomania is a radical preoccupation with studying the end time by making adherence to detailed theological schemes and chart maps the litmus test for orthodoxy. Eschatomaniacs are often sensationalistic and unbalanced. Eschataphobia is a radical fear of the study of the end times by people who believe that making any positive or detailed observations concerning end times is radical, sensational, and unnecessarily divisive.
Do you believe your local church evidences either of these imbalances? Explain.
In my opinion, my church has a proper, balanced perspective. If anything, we may lean toward eschataphobia. We hear very few and study very few lessons relating to prophecy. There have been a few sermons on the end times, but never any series on the subject.
What tendencies do you lean towards?
I lean toward being an eschatomanicac. I really find it interesting to study Revelation and end times matters. There are a lot of theories out there that are fun to read. I like reading Joel Rosenberg’s books and the Left Behind books. Whether it gives me a balanced perspective, I don’t know, but I enjoy reading them and analyzing our culture and comparing it to Scripture.
2. Eschatomania goes hand in had with eschataphobia. In other words, you will not have a rise in eschatomania without a rise in eschataphobia. Why do you believe this is the case?
Throughout much of church history, it seems that we always find contrarians. We always want to take a stand and say ‘we’ are right and ‘they’ are wrong. Anyone who comes up with a view counter to our own, our knee-jerk reaction is to tell them they are wrong and defend ourselves, rather than considering their arguments and responding peacefully.
3. Review the arguments for Postmillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
In my opinion, argument #3, that the church continues to grow and has reached over 2 billion is a strong argument for me. The fact that the gospel continually spreads and increasingly so, demonstrates that God is active in the world and is working to save more and more people. Considering that more people believe now, than at any other point in history is a point for praise to God!
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
In my opinion, the biggest weakness of this position is the lack of Scriptural support. If the Bible is quite silent on a subject, we have to be careful not to stretch certain versus to make them say what we want them to say instead of honestly seeking what they do have to say to us.
4. Review the arguments for Amillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
The strongest argument to me is argument #5, that there is no mention of the millenium outside of Revelation and that the Greek word used here can mean “a long period of time”.
I hear a lot of people who say the believe in a ‘literal 1,000 year regin of Christ on earth’, but what exactly is that going to be? Will it be 1,000 years to the second, to the day, or some other indefinite period of a long time?
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
The weakness of this position to me is how they deal with the two resurrections mentioned in Revelation. How they deal with Israel is also a difficult argument for me, but I understand that there are many who subscribe to replacement theology even though I do not.
5. Review the arguments for Premillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
The strongest argument for me for Premillenialism is that it is the most natural reading of Revelation 20. This and the fact that most of the early church believed this to be true is also a strong argument. If the Bible and early church fathers seem to best explain a doctrine and speak for themselves on it, that’s a pretty good argument for me.
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
I think the weakest part of the case for Premillenialism is our lack of information on it outside of Revelation 20. There have been lots of books written and charts drawn up on how exactly the end of time and history will go down based on a small portion of Revelation.
6. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?
For me, the understanding of the Greek word for ‘millenium’ having a meaning of a ‘long period of time’ is pretty crucial. As I mentioned before, a lot of people say they believe in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ, but I can not help but think that there is some debate as to exactly what one thousand years means in this context.
October 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
EE -Week 9– Group Discussion Questions;
1. Eschatomania is a radical preoccupation with studying the end time by making adherence to detailed theological schemes and chart maps the litmus test for orthodoxy. Eschatomaniacs are often sensationalistic and unbalanced. Eschataphobia is a radical fear of the study of the end times by people who believe that making any positive or detailed observations concerning end times is radical, sensational, and unnecessarily divisive.
Do you believe your local church evidences either of these imbalances? Explain.
–No. It’s hardly taught. We have had Wednesday night study series’ once in a while but mostly not. I believe most people are looking for “Now” solutions.
What tendencies do you lean towards?
– I personally haven’t spent much time studying end times.
2. Eschatomania goes hand in hand with eschataphobia. In other words, you will not have a rise in eschatomania without a rise in eschataphobia. Why do you believe this is the case?
– Whenever Eschatological views are brought up, there is always a “But” or reverse opinion. Just as in Democrat or Republicans, they almost never agree and will let you know.
3. Review the arguments for Postmillennialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
– I would say that 1Cor 15:25 makes a pretty strong case for Postmillennialism. “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.”
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
–I guess were just not seeing the “All authority” here on earth as it should be to prove the viewpoint.
4. Review the arguments for Amillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
–It’s pretty clear that when Christ returns the millennium begins according to the New Testament.
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
–According to MP, Where do you put the 2nd coming of Christ?
5. Review the arguments for Premillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
–It was the belief of the early church fathers. Revelation says there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ.
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
– The 1000 year reign is only mentioned in Revelations and not in any other book by any other author.
6. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?
– Are you kidding? I’m still smoking between my ears. This has been and still is a tough tough lesson for me. It’s very hard to get a grip on this since it’s all new to me.
October 31st, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Discussion Questions 9
1. Eschatomania is a radical preoccupation with studying the end times by making adherence to detailed theological schemes and chart maps the litmus test for orthodoxy. Eschatomaniacs are often sensationalistic and unbalanced. Eschatophobia is a radical fear of the study of the end times by people who believe that making any positive or detailed observations concerning the end times is radical, sensational and unnecessarily divisive. Do you believe that your local church evidences either of these imbalances?
I consider myself fortunate that my church takes a balanced approach towards eschatology. Our pastor has recently begun a series on Revelation on Sunday mornings, but this is not the only topic we are discussing in all of our ministries. We recognize the importance of the study of future things but we also know there is much more to the Bible than eschatology.
2. Eschatomania goes hand in hand with eschatophobia. In other words, you will not have a rise in eschatomania without a rise in eschatophobia. Why do you believe this is the case?
Like so many doctrinal controversies that have arisen during church history, there seems to be a pendulum effect where overemphasis on a point tends to elicit a counter response that goes to the other extreme. Maybe sometimes the extra attention towards end time discussions leaves some people “burned out” on the subject.
3a. Review the arguments for Postmillennialism. Which arguments do you think were the strongest? Why? (Note: “none of them” is not a valid answer for our purposes).
Arguments for postmillennialism include (from the TTP EE Workbook):
A. The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) demands fulfillment during the present age, since Christ is the one who is the power behind it (also see 1 Corinthians 15:25.
B. Certain parables (e.g. Matthew 13:31-33) clearly state that the kingdom of heaven will continue to grow and eventually transform the entire world.
C. The Church does in fact continue to grow and has more than 2 billion adherents.
D. All other eschatological views are too pessimistic. Only Postmillennialism provides for the true triumph of Christ through the Church.
Of these arguments in favor of Postmillennialism, I would say that A and B are the strongest. The reason that evangelical Christianity has been able to positively change individual lives and societies can primarily be explained by the power of the Holy Spirit working quietly in hearts and minds. The Church has definitely grown from a small group in Jerusalem to a vast number.
3b. Which weakness do you think is the most problematic to the position? Why?
To review arguments against, these are those listed in the course workbook:
A. The NT does not suggest that things will get better before Christ comes, but much worse. (Matthew 24; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; 2 Peter 3:3-4)
B. Postmillennialism arose during a time of great hope and enlightenment but that hope has turned to despair in the twentieth century. Man is not improving as we thought and the Church is not triumphing over the world.
C. There is limited amount of scriptural support for this position.
Although I consider all three arguments to be strong, argument “B” is most problematic in my opinion. Since Jews and Gentiles both possess the same corrupt human nature, why should it be that Gentiles would succeed where the Israelite nation failed in their witness for God? Even though the Church was given greater scriptural and spiritual resources, much of Christendom has fallen into apostasy. An example of this is fading influence of Christianity in the West, especially in Europe and increasingly so in Canada and in the United States.
4a. Review the arguments for Amillenialism. Which arguments do you think were the strongest? Why? (Note: “none of them” is not a valid answer for our purposes).
Arguments in favor of Amillennialism included:
A. The NT convincingly suggests that the kingdom of God was introduced with the coming of Christ. (Matthew 12:28; Mark 1:14-15; Mark 9:1; Mark 12:34; Luke 17:20-21)
B. Christ said that all authority had been given to Him; therefore He is now reigning from heaven and in the hearts of believers. (Matthew 28:18-20)
C. The kingdom of God is ultimately found not in a thousand year millennium but in the new heaven and the new earth. Therefore there is no need for a millennium even if you believe that there are promised to ethnic Israel yet to be fulfilled. They can all be fulfilled on the new earth.
D. Other Scriptures make it clear that there is no interval between the coming of the Lord and Judgment. ( 2 Peter 3:9-10; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10)
E. There is no mention of a millennium outside the book of the highly symbolic book of Revelation. The Greek word for “thousand” is symbolic an extremely long period of time.
F. Binding of Satan in Revelation 20 refers to Christ’s binding of the “strong man” in Matthew 2:29… He (Satan) is no longer “deceiving the nations in that the light of the Gospel is going out to all people.
G. Scripture does not teach two resurrections. The resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:5 refers to the martyrs’ coming into the presence of the Lord in Heaven and reigning with Him there. John 5:28-29 speak of only one resurrection (see also Acts 24:15).
H. Amillennialism has been the view of the Church for the majority of Church history.
Taken together, arguments “A”, “B” and “C” are the strongest. It is true in a sense that the kingdom of God is now in the hearts of believers as implied in Luke 17:20-21.
4b. Which weakness do you think is the most problematic to the position? Why?
Listed weaknesses were:
A. Although it may be feasible to spiritualize the one-thousand-year reign of Christ in Revelation 20, this is much more difficult to do with the two resurrections of the same passage, one occurring before the millennium and one occurring after (Rev. 20: 4–6).
B. It is problematic to say that Satan has been bound and locked and sealed in the abyss for the last two thousand years, not deceiving the nations. Peter says that Satan “prowls about like a roaring loin, seeking someone to devour” (1 Pet. 5:8). This does not fit with any system except that which sees the millennium as yet future.
C. The argument about the two resurrections of Rev. 20 is weak at best.
D. Usually does not have a future for ethnic Israel, but replaces Israel with the Church. This is problematic since Rom. 11 seems to say that ethnic Israel does have future.
I would say B and C would be most the strongest arguments against. It has been said that if Satan is presently bound, he must have a very long chain! Implacable hatred on the part of secular humanists toward Christ and Christianity abounds and is increasing. Many false religions and cults have burst forth in the world and often these are also hostile not only to Christians but also towards Jews as well. In argument C, the idea that the first resurrection merely refers to believers going to Heaven violates the normal grammatical meaning of “resurrection” and wrongly spiritualizes it.
5a. Review the arguments for Premillenialism. Which arguments do you think were the strongest? Why? (Note: “none of them” is not a valid answer for our purposes).
Arguments in favor were:
A. The most natural reading of Revelation 20 demands that there be a one-thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. No other scenario can do justice to this passage.
B. It was the view of virtually all the early Church Fathers (pre-250). Irenaeus believed in a future millennium and he received his views from the writings of Papias, who was an acquaintance of John the apostle.
C. History tells us that the Church’s subsequent rejection of Premillennialism was both reactionary and motivated by unchristian worldviews.
D. The millennium is necessary for God to fulfill His promises to Israel (Dispensational Premillennialism).
E. Although while Christ was on the earth, the kingdom of God was present through the advent of the King, Christ makes it clear that He did not set up His Kingdom during this time, but that it was still yet future. (Acts 1:6-7; Matthew 6:9-10)
Arguments “A” and “D” stand out to me of these five. The “new heavens and new earth” passage of Isaiah 65:17-24 lends support to the natural reading of Revelation 20. These verses from Isaiah speak of a blessed and secure Israel although death has not been eradicated. Taken together, they seem to call for another stage of world history prior to the eternal state.
5b. Which weakness do you think is the most problematic to the position? Why?
Arguments against were:
A. It is problematic to base such an important doctrine on one passage. The one thousand-year reign of Christ is only mentioned in Revelation 20. If this passage were not in Scripture we would not know about it.
B. Other Scriptures suggest that there is no interval between the second coming of Christ and the judgment.
That would be argument “B” although the verses cited (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-9) do not yet convince me that they support the idea that the judgment mentioned here is the same as the Great White Throne Judgment.
6. How was your thinking challenged the most by the lesson?
One can never be really certain that the eschatological view he or she holds is completely accurate. I can better understand the reasons for the Postmillennial and Amillennial views although I don’t agree with them. Also, Wayne Grudem in his book, Systematic Theology makes a good case for the historical premillennial view that has the Church going through the Great Tribulation. I hope he’s wrong and I bet that he hopes he’s wrong too!
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:05 pm
1. Eschatomania is a radical preoccupation with studying the end time by making adherence to detailed theological schemes and chart maps the litmus test for orthodoxy. Eschatomaniacs are often sensationalistic and unbalanced. Eschataphobia is a radical fear of the study of the end times by people who believe that making any positive or detailed observations concerning end times is radical, sensational, and unnecessarily divisive.
Do you believe your local church evidences either of these imbalances? Explain.
If my local church has any tendency in this area it would probably be eschatophobia. We simply do not discuss this issue much in our church, most likely because a particular eschatology is not essential for salvation.
What tendencies do you lean towards?
I lean toward eschatophobia because, while I enjoy studying this topic and learning what can be found in scripture, I don’t really see the value in taking a hard stand on a particular eschatology.
2. Eschatomania goes hand in had with eschataphobia. In other words, you will not have a rise in eschatomania without a rise in eschataphobia. Why do you believe this is the case?
I have known some believers who lean toward eschatomania and their spiritual discussions have a tendency to sound rather polemical. Reacting to this argument, other believers tend to shut the conversation down completely. These two polar opposite reactions to a conversation about the same topic feed on one another.
3. Review the arguments for Postmillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
- The argument that the great commission demands fulfillment until “the very end of the age.”
- The church does seem to be growing in some parts of the world.
These two arguments set up a possible scenario where Christ is ruling a millennial period right now.
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
- The world does not seem to be getting any better right now.
- The N.T. does not suggest the world will get better before the return of Christ.
These two arguments suggest that millennial reign of Christ has not yet begun.
4. Review the arguments for Amillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
- The scriptures speak of the Kingdom of God “at hand”, “upon you”, “in your midst”, “not far”.
- The Kingdom of God is ultimately found in the new heaven and new earth, not in a 1000 year millennium.
- Scripture indicates no interval between the Lord’s 2nd coming and the final judgment.
These arguments would set the scenario in which no millennium was necessary.
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
- Scriptural support for a literal 1000 year millennium in Rev. 20:2-3.
- Satan does not appear to be truly and fully bound at this time, and 1 Pet. 5:8 warns us that satan is on the prowl.
When you combine these two arguments you conclude that the church age is not a very good representation of the biblical millennium.
5. Review the arguments for Premillenialism.
Which arguments do you think were the strongest? (note: “none of them” is not a valid argument for our purposes.)
- Rev. 20 seems to clearly define a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
Which weakness do you think is most problematic to the position? Why?
- Revelation is a very symbolic book and it is hard to create an entire doctrine on just one passage.
6. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?
Once again, as has been the case several times throughout The Theology Program, we find ambiguity where we desire clarity. It is very challenging for one who loves the way systematic theology usually squares up to come upon these areas where God has not given me the kind of clarity I desire.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Group Discussion # 9
1. Eschatomania is a radical preoccupation with studying the end times by making adherence to detailed theological schemes and chart maps the litmus test for orthodoxy. Eschatomaniacs are often sensationalistic and unbalanced. Eschatophobia is a radical fear of the study of end times by people who believe that making any positive or detailed observations concerning the end times is radical, sensational, and unnecessarily divisive.
Do you believe that your local church evidences either of these imbalances? Explain.
Some members would lean heavily toward Eschatomania, while others would lean more toward Eschatophobia. The church is somewhere in the middle.
Which tendencies do you lean towards?
I teach these truths: Jesus is coming again, we don’t know when, be ready. There are valid arguments that support each view and each group has their proof texts. I’m not afraid for the discussion; I just don’t see the point in spending an inordinate amount of time on it.
2. Eschatomania goes hand in hand with Eschatophobia. In other words, you will not have a rise in Eschatomania without a rise in Eschatophobia. Why do you believe this is the case?
Perhaps it is more of a pendulum sway. With the change in world events comes personal prosperity, the perspective of individuals change. We then interpret scripture in light of circumstances. Post-millennialism was popular until the carnage of WWI shook the belief the society was becoming more blissful. The establishment of the state of Israel raised the pre-millennial view in popularity.
3. Review the arguments for Postmillennialism. Which arguments do you thing were the strongest? Why?
The third; The Church does in fact continue to grow and has more than 2 billion adherents. The Church does continue to grow, especially today in the third world countries.
Which weakness do you think is the most problematic to the position? Why?
The first: The New Testament does not suggest that things will get better before Christ comes, but much worse. Scripture does teach that perilous times will come. Besides those weaknesses listed, there seems to be no postmillennial answer that makes sense for the Lord coming like “a thief in the night”; the parousia.
4. Review the arguments for Amillennialism. Which arguments do you think were the strongest? Why?
The first: The New Testament convincingly suggests that the kingdom of God was introduced with the coming of Christ. Or, with the ascension, or with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. I would also agree with the fifth: that the “thousand” is symbolic. If 70 times 7 is symbolic; and if 10,000 talents is symbolic, why not a thousand year millennium?
Which weakness do you think is the most problematic to the position? Why?
The second: It is problematic to say that Satan has been bound and locked and sealed in the abyss for the last two thousand years, not deceiving the nations. Peter says that Satan “prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour”. This does not fit with any system except that which sees the millennium as yet future. To say that “Satan has been bound” is contrary to many scriptures, not just I Peter 5:8. It is also contrary to any rational look at the world around us.
5. Review the arguments for Premillennialism. Which arguments do you think were the strongest? Why?
The first: The most natural reading of Rev. 20 demands that there be a one thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. No other scenario can do justice to this passage. The book of Revelation does speak of tribulation and Christ coming to take His children home. The particulars of that coming vary in several scriptures: I Thess. 4; Rev. 20; and I Cor. 15.
Which weakness do you think is the most problematic to the position? Why?
The first: It is problematic to base such an important doctrine on one passage. The one thousand year reign of Christ is only mentioned in Rev. 20. If this passage were not in Scripture, we would not know about it. Other Scriptures suggest that there is no interval between the second coming of Christ and the judgment. Revelation 20 is in a book filled with symbolism, much of which is subject to various interpretations.
6. How was your thinking challenged the most by the lesson? Explain.
Most of my life, I’ve been in churches lead by a pre-millennial pastor. I can’t remember if Gog and Magog were symbolic for Germany or China; and Meshech and Tubal are ancient cities in Russia, if my memory is correct. I remember the evangelist who said that the Second Coming would be before 1968 because that was a generation after Israel had been reborn in 1948. I’ve worked with Deacons and teachers who could quote the Scofield notes as easy as verses from the King James; and some considered those notes just as inspired. I felt your presentation was balanced. Although I’m not even a two in certainty, I would probably identify my beliefs as pre-millennial, post-trib. I would much rather center my studies and preaching on sanctification, justification, and servanthood.