24
09
2008
Session 6: Ministries of the Church: Ordinances/Sacraments?
Posted by: carrie in Fall 2008Fall 2007 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below.
NOTE: This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
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What is an ordinance/sacrament? Part 1 [10:01m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is an ordinance/sacrament? Part 2 [14:34m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is baptism? [16:52m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is the Lord's Supper? [14:03m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download How is the Church equipped to accomplish its ministry? [13:29m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
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September 29th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Group Discussion # 6
1. There are Christian groups that do not practice any of the sacraments, believing that they were only for the establishment of the Church. What arguments would you give that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are ordinances given to the Body of Christ today?
Luke 22:19 - “Do this in remembrance…”; I Cor. 11:25 - “As often as you drink it…”. We are expected to observe and remember. Matt. 28:19-20 commands us to go, teach or disciple, and to baptize. Nowhere in scripture has Christ rescinded these commanded observances.
2. Review the four views of baptism. Evaluate the brief arguments of each that was given in the chart.
a. If we believe that baptism removes original sin, then we must also believe that it contributes to salvation (Eph. 2:8-0). Also, salvation comes by confession and heart belief (Rom. 10:9-10).
b. The response to the Philippian jailor’s question, “What must I do to be saved?” Paul and Silas said nothing of baptism. Cornelius, in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit, a sure sign of salvation, before baptism.
c. There is no place in scripture where salvation is attained where there is no personal response. I cannot decide for you that you are a believer, nor can you receive the gift of salvation for me. My parents could not bring me into the Kingdom by sprinkling, pouring, or immersing. Sprinkling of an infant is a beautiful ceremony, but has no salvific benefit.
d. Salvation is by “Grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9); Baptism clearly symbolizes the transformation from death to life brought by salvation (Rom. 6:3-4); The New Testament church always baptized post salvation as previously seen in (c); The argument that proselyte’s to Judaism had to express faith demonstrates a pattern but hardly equals the weight of scriptural teaching.
3. Read Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16…
My dad would quote scripture to say “Judas went and hanged himself…go thou and do likewise…and what thou doest do quickly.” We understand scripture in context and with the total content. What is the overwhelming evidence in reference to baptism and salvation? I believe scripture teaches that baptism is by immersion and is an act of obedience. From the “Evangelical Dictionary of Theology”, page 134: The immersionist position is founded on three arguments. (1) It is argued that the word “baptizein” means “to immerse,” and therefore the command to baptize is itself a command to immerse. “Baptizein” in classical usage generally meant “to dip,” and this use carried over into its use in Scripture (2 Kings 5:10, 14). Immersionists maintain that this meaning continues unaltered in NT usage and that this is confirmed by the use of the prepositions “in” and “into” with “baptizein” and by certain circumstantial references to baptism being administered in places where large supplies of water could be found (Luke 3:3; John 3:23). (2) Because baptism signifies union with Christ in his burial and resurrection (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12), immersionists contend that only sinking under and coming up out of the water adequately express the symbolism of the sacrament. (3) Immersionists lay claim to the testimony of the early church, for which immersion was the primary mode.
4. Briefly evaluate the four views of the Lord’s Supper. Which do you believe best represents the biblical model? Briefly give the two primary arguments that persuade you of your answer.
a. Transubstantiation - Every word of scripture is not meant to be interpreted literally; specifically, the “I Am” passages of the Gospel of John. I like the wording in “The Cross of Christ” by John Stott, page 70: “By what He did with the bread and wine, and by what He said about them, He was visibly dramatizing His death before it took place and giving His own authoritative explanation of its meaning and purpose.” Pages 69-74 in “The Cross of Christ” are breathtaking.
b. If Christ picturing His death; which He is; and if He instituting an act of remembrance; which He also was doing; then the essentials are remembering the sacrifice and celebrating “so great salvation”. The symbolic picture drawn should cause us to marvel at our Savior and what He did for us on Calvary. His words were “do this in remembrance”.
c. Conferring Grace by receiving communion makes it salvific, or are we speaking of Grace for spiritual living? Is Christ not present each time two or more gather, when we pray, as we share the gospel, or as we counsel a couple attempting to save a marriage? Is He present to a greater degree when we share “the Lord’s Supper” than He is when we speak comfort to a family grieving over the death of a parent?
d. Your wording is interesting at slide #283. Why use the word “mere” memorial? Would singing the National Anthem at the sight of the Battleship Arizona be a “mere” memorial? The sacrifice of Christ is more significant than the Arizona, Flanders Field, or Ground Zero, yet to memorialize those events brings tears, goose bumps, and stoic, ashen faces. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me.” The words of our Savior were not mere words, but contained eternal significance. From Stott, “The Cross of Christ”, page 71: “The Lord’s Supper, which was instituted by Jesus, and which is the only regular commemorative act authorized by Him, dramatizes neither His birth nor his life, neither His words nor His works, but only His death. Nothing could indicate more clearly the central significance that Jesus attached to His death. It was by His death that He wished above all else to be remembered.” Pages 72-73: “True, He took, blessed and broke the bread, but then He explained its significance as He gave it to them to eat. Again He took and blessed the cup, but then He explained its meaning as He gave it to them to drink. Thus they were not just spectators of this drama of the cross; they were participants in it. Just as it was not enough for the bread to be broken and the wine to be poured out, but they had to eat and drink, so it was not enough for him to die, but they had to appropriate the benefits of his death personally. The eating and drinking were, and still are, a vivid acted parable of receiving Christ as our crucified Savior and of feeding on Him in our hearts by faith.”
5. How was your thinking challenged the most by the lesson? Explain.
Too often Baptism, and especially the Lord’s Supper, becomes “routine” and we do not portray the appropriate significance. We, as ministers, must make certain our preparation to lead these observances reflect their eternal significance. We must also educate our congregations. What will the congregants take from the place of worship? Is it a renewed appreciation for His cross and our salvation? If this is not so, then as pastor, no matter how eloquent my words or beautiful the music, or fervent the prayers; I have failed. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper should move us to a greater devotion for our Savior. Whatever our view of the Lord’s Supper or baptism, it is about Jesus, not primarily about the individual being baptized or the theological interpretation we hold.
October 2nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
EE - Session 6 Group Discussion Questions…
1. There are Christian groups that do not practice any of the sacraments, believing that they were only for the establishment of the Church. What arguments would you give that baptism and the Lord’s supper are ordinances given to the Body of Christ today?
There is very strong scriptural evidence of Christ himself wanting us to baptize people and celebrate the Lord’s supper: “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them…” Matt. 28-19, “Do this to remember me.” Luke 22:19
2. Review the four views of baptism. Evaluate the brief arguments of each that was given in the chart.
The Roman Catholic view of baptism as a way to remove original sin seems flawed. I don’t understand how people who have their sin nature removed through baptism, continue to sin. The Roman Catholic view that baptism is necessary for salvation also rejects clear scriptural teaching that salvation is by grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). The Lutheran view of saving grace through baptism seems to be opposed to the clear scriptural teaching that salvation is by grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). The Reformed view where baptism is not salvific, is a symbol of the removal of sin and initiation into the community and is the NT version of circumcision seems like the best argument. The Baptist view that baptism is not for infants seems to reject the scriptures where whole families where baptized.
3. Read Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 and Romans 10:9. Evaluate the baptismal regeneration argument.
It seems to me that the overwhelming message from scripture is that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. With this as our starting point we see the passages about baptism pointing to symbols. Christ’s message always seems directed to our hearts, not our works. In that way, baptism seems to be a way we express a heart felt need to be identified with Christ’s death and resurrection to new life. Infant baptism is the symbol of the desire for the child to enter into the community of believers which the child himself will have to confirm later in life.
4. Briefly evaluate the four views of the Lord’s supper. Which do you believe best represents the biblical model?
The Roman Catholic view seems flawed in that it re-sacrifices Christ and blends his deity (omnipresence) with his humanity (body, blood) in the transubstantiation. The Lutheran view also blends Christ’s deity and humanity in consubstantiation, negating the work Christ did for us in living a sinless life, dieing for our sins on the cross and rising to new life in the resurrection. The Zwinglian view seems to miss the importance of the sacrament by treating it as a simple memorial, which isn’t a necessity since we can memorialize Christ in various other ways. The Reformed view makes the most biblical sense to me because it captures the importance of Christ’s spiritual presence in the sacrament and, as the Westminster Confession of Faith puts it: “commemorates Christ’s offering up of himself, by himself, on the cross once for all.”
5. How was your thinking challenged most by the lesson?
I was again impressed with how an important part of our theology is left to many interpretations by well meaning, Christ following believers. Given baptism and celebration of the Lord’s supper are clearly called for by Christ himself, you would thing there would be more clarity and agreement on how and why we do these things.
October 2nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
1. There are Christian groups that do not practice any of the sacraments, believing that they were only for the establishment of the Church. What arguments would you give that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are ordinances given to the Body of Christ today?
I think the Great Commission gives us clear direction to baptize and disciple. In addition, Chirst had the Last Supper with His disciples and indicated to them that whenever they eat or drink that they do so in rememberance of Him. Other ordinances/sacraments I think come from church tradition and not from a direct command of the Lord.
2. Review the four views of baptism. Evaluate the brief arguments of each that was given in the chart.
a. The Roman Catholic view of baptism primarily signifies removal of sin. It is seen as a necessary component for salvation and to be administered as soon as possible in infants or adults (if the person is an adult convert). I believe this view is inconsistent with the Scripture in terms of salvation. Nowhere can I find evidence that salvation is necessary by the physical act of baptism.
b. The Lutheran view of baptism is one that saving grace is bestowed upon the recipient. It is considered to be necessary for salvation. Again, I believe this view is inconsistent with the Scripture in terms of salvation. Nowhere can I find evidence that salvation is necessary by the physical act of baptism.
c. The Reformed view of baptism is one w
here sin is removed from a person physically. Although this is not an act necessary for salvation, people are encouraged to receive baptism as soon as possible, even for infants. They further believe that baptism is the ‘circumcison’ for the church, which replaced Israel. I believe that this view is still inconsistent with my view, in that I do not beleive that baptism is not the new circumcision for the church as the new Israel.
d. The Baptist view of salvation is the one which I agree with most. It is an outward sign of salvation done in identification with Christ. The act is symbolic and not necessary for salvation, but is commanded by the Lord.
3. Read Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 and Romans 10:9. Evaluate the baptismal regeneration argument.
I think many of these passages need to be kept in context. The overriding message of all these books is that salvation comes through Jesus Christ and faith in Him. Many of these individual passages that allude to baptism being an instrument of salvation, need to be kept in context. Mark 16 seems to allude to driving out demons as another sign of being a believer. So, if I do not drive out demons am I not a believer? I think the context of all these passages indicate that baptism is a sign and evidence of a person’s acceptance of Christ.
4. Briefly evaluate the four views of the Lord’s supper. Which do you believe best represents the biblical model?
a. The Roman Catholic view of the Lord’s supper is one where Christ is physically present and crucified for your sins, transubstantiation. I think this view is overly literal, however, it is a widely held belief.
b. The Lutheran view of the Lord’s supper is similar, but less literal than the Roman Catholic view. It also seems to confer grace physcially to the recipient. I also feel this is an overly literal view of the Lord’s supper and verses that refer to it.
c. The Reformed view of the Lord’s supper is one where Christ is present spiritually in the taking of the elements. I do not think this is reflected in the Scripture in so much as Christ is physically and specially present during the Lord’s supper.
d. The Zwinglian view or memorial view is one where the Eucharist is a rememberance of what Christ did on the cross and His resurrection. I most closely associate myself with this view. It is also a similar approach to my Baptismal view.
5. How was your thinking challenged most by the lesson?
Baptism and the Eucharist are imporant ordinances/sacraments in most Christian traditions. Although there are various views and methods of participation of each, both are emphasized as important. There has been much disagreement as to the function of these and perhaps more ordinances. I think its important to understandy why traditions believe certain ways, yet strive to be truthful and appropriate in our participation in each.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
EE –Week 6 – Group Discussion Questions;
1. There are Christian groups that do not practice any of the sacraments, believing that they were only for the establishment of the Church. What arguments would you give that baptism and the Lord’s supper are ordinances given to the Body of Christ today?
–Jesus told His disciples in Matt. 28:19-20 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. . . .” This is a very clear ordinance for baptism commanded by the Lord. Also in Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” Another clear ordinance, this time for the taking of the Lord’s supper. These were not given as options.
2. Review the four views of baptism. Evaluate the brief arguments of each that was given in the chart.
– a. Before Jesus died on the cross baptism was seen as a method of washing away sin, after he gave His life for our sins there is no need for the removal of original sin.
b. Grace is given even to those not baptized but have asked for His love and acceptance.
c. Circumcision was ended by Jesus so why do we need a rite or initiation?
d. Baptism is an outward expression to others of and inward confession.
3. Read Acts 2:38 and Mk. 16:16. The argument of those who believe in baptismal regeneration is that these Scriptures clearly teach that baptism brings about salvation. The argument of those who say that baptism does not save is that Scripture clearly teaches that salvation is by grace and faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4, 11:6). With reference to the passages that seem to teach that baptism saves, those who deny baptismal regeneration would concede that taken out of the theological context of the rest of Scripture, they could be interpreted as teaching baptismal regeneration. But because of clear doctrinal statements that exclude the possibility of baptismal regeneration, we must search for an alternative interpretation of these verses. Now read Rom. 10:9. These verses, according to those who deny baptismal regeneration, are merely pointing out that people who have been saved will be baptized since baptism is a natural outcome of salvation. Just as “confession with the mouth” is not technically necessary for salvation, but you would expect it to be a first fruit of salvation, so in a like manner baptism is not technically necessary for salvation either. Evaluate the arguments of both.
–Having never been a Roman Catholic… not many Jews have… I only understand baptism from a reformed viewpoint of it not being required for salvation. But, since Jesus says we should be baptized makes a clear case for importance. A celebration of eternal life and witnessing your commitment to Him.
4. Briefly evaluate the four views of the Lord’s supper. Which do you believe best represents the biblical model? Briefly give the two primary arguments that persuade you of your answer.
– a. Roman Catholic; It is a sacrament that must be rightly administered and becomes the body and blood of Jesus.
b. Lutheran; Christ’s body and blood are “In, with and under” the bread and wine. The partaker acknowledges a in agreement.
c. Reformed; Christ is present spiritually in the elements and the partakers receive Grace.
d. Zwinglian; This is a remembrance and proclamation of Christ’s death for us.
I tend to argue for a Lutheran and Zwiglian combination. (like a combo meal). “Do this in remembrance of me, and “This is my body and blood”.
5. How was your thinking challenged the most by the lesson? Explain.
–It’s always hard to see the hard line taken by the Roman Catholics who dearly love the Lord. I get saddened by legalism. With that said, our relationship is with Jesus and the church body, the people, not the church and it’s pile of sacraments. Unction seems like something taken out of a pyramid. I guess I’d never make a good Priest, sorry.
October 12th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Discussion Questions 6
1. There are Christian groups that do not practice any of the sacraments, believing that they were only for the establishment of the Church. What arguments would you give that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are ordinances given to the Body of Christ today?
I would say that Christ commanded His disciples to observe these ordinances. Matthew 28:18-20 records Jesus’ instructions regarding baptism. Baptism continued to be practiced universally in the early church throughout the apostolic period and then after the original apostles died. Also in Luke 22:19 Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper with the words, “do this in remembrance of me”. The apostle Paul described in 1 Corinthians 11 how the Lord’s Supper was improperly observed, its importance and how they should correct themselves.
2. Review the four views of baptism. Evaluate the brief arguments of each that was given in the chart.
Roman Catholic View: Baptism cleanses the recipient of original sin, (the imputed guilt of Adam’s sin) ex opere operato. It is a grace bestowed by the work performed by an authorized priest, is not dependent on the faith of the recipient or of the parent or guardian who has it done for a child or infant. They also hold to the view of baptismal regeneration, and the rite is necessary for salvation. Method is by sprinkling.
Lutheran View: Baptism imparts saving grace to the one being baptized. Only those who are able to believe are baptized. The Lutheran view also holds that baptism is necessary for salvation. Method is also by sprinkling.
Reformed View: Infants and Adults may be baptized and is seen as an initiation into the covenant community. It is not considered necessary for salvation. This is also done by sprinkling.
Baptist View: Baptism is the profession of faith, an outward symbol of an inner change of heart, and is only performed for those old enough to believe. It is not considered necessary for salvation although if one is truly saved there should be a desire to obey the Lord’s command to be baptized. Baptism is by immersion, as this is the literal meaning of the word from which “baptism” came.
Of these four, being a Southern Baptist, I naturally favor the Baptist View although I also consider the Reformed view of baptism being an initiation into the covenant community (membership of a local church) to be important as well.
3. Evaluate the arguments of both (those who hold to baptismal regeneration and those who don’t).
Verses such as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 and Acts 22:16 could be understood as teaching baptismal regeneration and have been interpreted this way by some. Yet when one considers all other Scriptures that deal with personal salvation, the total picture emerges of grace by faith being the cause (e.g. Ephesians 2:8-9) and a willingness to undergo baptism instead, being the result of an inward, spiritual change in a person’s life.
4. Briefly evaluate the four views of the Lord’s Supper. Which do you believe best represents the biblical model? Briefly give the two primary arguments that persuade you of your answer.
Of the four views presented in the lesson, I believe the Zwinglian view is the most biblical. The passages in Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians I referred to in Question 2 give the Lord’s Supper memorial significance. Also it proclaims Christ’s death until He returns (1 Corinthians 11: 26). I cannot agree with transubstantiation or consubstantiation as I think these ideas are not fully supported by the texts from which these concepts are drawn. Still, I believe that the observance of the Lord’s Supper is more than a memorial and there are some elements of mystery, as illustrated by the judgments that fell on the Corinthian believers for their inappropriate behavior during observances of this sacrament. We should always approach this ordinance with a reverent attitude, remembering what Jesus did for us and how much salvation cost. It should be a time of personal repentance, renewal and recommitment.
5. How was your thinking challenged the most by the lesson?
I can see more clearly the reasons why Catholics believe as they do about the Lord’s Supper. It challenged me and caused me to think through why I believe as I do.